[I received a take-down notice from NYRR. Although I believe that my use of the copyrighted images is a fair use under section 107 of the Copyright Act, for now I'm taking the photos down, but leaving the links to them up.
[Several folks posted stuff about this on the NYRR Facebook page. NYRR has taken those references down, in contradiction to its terms-of-use, which allow "constructive criticism" of NYRR to be expressed there.
[Most important, nothing from NYRR defending, justifying, or apologizing for these lapses.]
[I don't normally cross-post stuff from what I put on NYCRuns.com but since this is to some extent a follow-up on an earlier post, I'm doing it this time]
[Edited to add: In my original post about the Mini, I noted that the photo was by Ed Haas, NYRR. I should have noted that again here. As to the Healthy-Kidney photo, that too is from NYRR, although I do not know who the photographer is. The video is from YouTube, and it was put up there by NYRRVideo, which I assume is NYRR (and is indicated by YouTube as NYRR.]
Ironically I had a slew of things I wanted to write, but my inability to decide what to say led me to let weeks go by without writing anything about NYRR.
To my rescue was a post on the New York Road Runner page on Facebook (it’s at 12:10pm on May 15). Margaret Tang wrote:
I’d like to see NYRR improve enforcement of seeded corrals, esp. in a large race like Healthy Kidney. While volunteers are doing a great job, there are still many people sneaking into faster corrals. It’s borderline dangerous navigating around walkers, w/ runners forced onto the curb/grass, esp. in a race where crowds don’t really thin out. Check out starting line pic…There’s an 11,000′s bib lined up w/ elite men.
Corral-enforcement is an issue that pops up now and then, although I’ve never seen it as an issue in the Blue corral. But if you go to that Facebook page you’ll see that it is an issue elsewhere, an issue I’ll let NYRR try to figure out. (How about taking down numbers and DQing some misreants?)
More important, the picture has nothing to do with corral-enforcement. It has everything to do with NYRR’s altered priorities.
I had the photos up but received a notice from NYRR that, “On your most recent, wonderfully written blog post you used several copyrighted images. You do not have permission from us or the photographer to use the images, and I must ask you to take them down immediately”. (I excuse the sarcasm since I once sent a sarcastic note to NYRR.)
But the Mini photo can be found HERE. And the Healthy-Kidney one HERE.
First, here’s the photo:
And what’s wrong with the HK that picture? It’s the guy in the middle, the one wearing a number and not a name (there are others like him right behind the first row so he was not alone in this, as you can see here). He’d run the 10K in just over 59 minutes. And, of course, he has a number in the 11 thousands.
And what’s wrong with that picture? A core principle of racing: you start where your ability allows you. It can be rough — I sometimes start out a bit farther up than I should even when I try not to — but this is pretty basic. Yet I don’t blame him or the other fellows like him. My assumption is that he is affiliated with the Embassy of the United Arab Emirates, the sponsor of the race, and was invited to stand in or near the front by NYRR. I say that because one cannot show up with the elites without permission of NYRR.
I recall the old days, before corrals, when Fred Lebow, megaphone in hand, would leap at some slow runner who had gotten himself to the front before the start — and you could tell — shooing him away with barely concealed disgust and contempt at someone who had so disregarded a core tenet of race etiquette. The race was the thing.
Could no one at NYRR on Saturday have done the same thing or thought ahead of time about this?
It so happens that all this comes up when I’ve run into some annoyance from NYRR about what happened in last year’s Mini, in particular the appearance in the final stretch of a number of toddlers, finishing with their moms. Most notoriously among them was Paula Radcliffe’s daughter. My understanding, though, is that NYRR had nothing to do with her appearance. That it was her father. Yet her child was not the only one.
My problem, though, is that NYRR widely-distributed one of its photos with 2 toddlers (including Radcliffe’s daughter), which I saw in a New York Times item on the race. I wrote a post about it at the time. Plus (video below) NYRR emphasized it in its video coverage of the race, showing a total of four toddlers in all.So as a PR stunt, NYRR sends around this photo and video encouraging parents to have their kids jump into the race. And, yeah, I know, world-record holder, race celebrating women, toddler, pregnant Kara Goucher, what’s not to love? As more than a few commented when I queried NYRR on Facebook about letting kids onto course, isn’t that kind of dangerous? (For the record, NYRR responded by saying its rules “clearly” prohibit it. I read them. They do not (or at least did not when I checked the other day).)
It’s a shame. Publicity trumps safety. “It was really dangerous.” “Yeah, but did you see that shot?” It’s a shame. Publicity trumps integrity. NYRR’s stated goal no longer is putting on road races. “It’s not the Running Society”, someone there wrote to me. “We promote healthy lifestyles through running and raise lots of money for our charities.” (As a further irony, Fred Lebow objected to attempts to use road racing as a means of raising money for causes. That’s for another day.)
You see it at the Marathon. In 2009, Edward Norton’s charity group — identified by their bright shirts — stood en masse not too far from the blue start line. They were immediately swallowed up and scattered after the cannon went off. The Chilean miner who’d never run a marathon? I know NYRR likes to point to him as inspirational. But based on his number — 7-127 — it appears this novice started in the third corral of the blue start.
On the May 15 New York Running Show we discussed what happened in Healthy-Kidney, and I note there that it was NYRR which allowed it to happen. As to promoting this in the Mini, even if it were not responsible, here’s the official NYRR video of the race; check out 3:20 and 4:00. If it is so wrong, and I think it is, why make such a point of showing it?
Perhaps you’ll say that this must have simply escaped the notice of the powers that be. Well, as to the HK picture, Margaret Tang appears to have seen the problem at a glance, and I did when I saw that Mini photo.
29 comments
Comments feed for this article
May 17, 2011 at 1:41 pm
Dietmar
By the way: The 11xxx number is Staff Major-General Obaid Al Ketbi,
Deputy Director-General of Abu Dhabi Police
http://gsec.abudhabi.ae/Sites/GSEC/Navigation/EN/ExecutiveCouncil/picture-gallery,did=90304,page=12.html
I think he was in front because of that, not because he sneaked in
May 17, 2011 at 1:43 pm
JoeGarland
As I said, he could not have snuck in. Which is why NYRR’s to blame.
May 17, 2011 at 2:18 pm
Patrick
I’m usually back in the red or yellow corral (depends on the size of the race) so I experience this problem from two different perspectives. First, people fill up the corrals but they don’t know how to run. For example, being at that point in the start we often do this funny run, stop, walk, run to cross the line and start the race (I’m sure there is some flow issue there). In the yellow corral there was a pink bib racing next to a green bib (I suppose the green bib could have worked up when they collapsed the corrals). Not being familiar with racing pink bib wasn’t prepared for the stop as we got toward the starting line and plowed into someone. At that point with how densely packed people are that could be REALLY dangerous, luckily no one was hurt.
Later on during the run, sometime around mile 1 there was a brown bibbed runner who clearly was trying too hard to keep up with the fast runners and just stopped to walk in the middle of the course. I understand some people needing to walk, but don’t stop then start walking, and don’t do it in the middle of the course. This time there was a small pileup that saw the brown bib and a yellow bibbed runner both on the ground for a brief moment.
I’m all for making the races more accessible, but that also means going to where it’s going to be best for you and other runners. They give the same instructions at the beginning of every race, why not add in a teensy bit of race etiquette? Besides, what’s the fun in getting passed by people for the entire race?
As for the sponsored runner in the front. I don’t have a huge problem with that provided that they’re few and that they’re given a little bit of information and told that they should move off to the side. It’s a great photo and opportunity for Mr. Al Ketbi provided by a gracious sponsor of the race.
May 17, 2011 at 7:08 pm
cg9m
here’s a picture i can imagine: joe’s captain of a sinking vessel. “man the lifeboats! fast guys first!” he cries. then, “women and children overboard!”
May 17, 2011 at 8:40 pm
Robert James Reese
Joe, I think you have a valid point and I’m glad that you’re speaking your mind. I imagine NYRR gets a lot of pressure from thei sponsors, etc. and so it’s good to have a voice from the runners answering back.
May 17, 2011 at 10:10 pm
Matthew Wong
I respectfully disagree. If NYRR wants to put a guy(s) near the front because his country/company/organization funds the race and puts up the prize money for the elite runners to win, I see no problem with that. It makes the races more affordable for everyone else to keep the sponsors happy and gets the elites out to the races.
May 17, 2011 at 10:26 pm
JoeGarland
I have no issue with NYRR or anyone else accommodating sponsors. Indeed, I have benefited from a Marathon sponsor, both in getting into the 2006 Marathon and getting “VIP” access to the Olympic Trials in 2007. But although I got into the 2006 race that way, where I stood at the start had nothing to do with it. I started where my expected time allowed me to start, nowhere else. (In fact it was the local-competitive start.)
Nor do I object to celebrating the accomplishments of a great athlete such as Paula Radcliffe, an athlete who I’d be thrilled to see, as I expect many of those around her were.
And I agree that all of these things are good for the sport and I appreciate what Mary Wittenberg has said about using the Chilean miner’s story as an inspiring tale of what running can be for anybody.
My difficulty is the safety issue. I worry about someone tripping over a kid when her thoughts are focused on getting through that last little hill to the finish. I worry about the chain-reaction of runners going at 5:30 or 6:00 pace as they come upon someone doing 9:00. I don’t know that NYRR worries about it too.
May 17, 2011 at 10:24 pm
Flo
This is so aggravating to read about, I’m glad you’re being vocal with your opinions. They’re races, not family festivals or pre-brunch activities. Sheesh!
May 17, 2011 at 10:27 pm
JoeGarland
May I quote you on that?
May 19, 2011 at 8:49 pm
Flo
But, of course.
May 17, 2011 at 10:27 pm
Mark Thompson
Hi Joe:
First of all, while my feelings towards NYRR are perhaps less strong than yours (for now), I do share your concerns about the safety of everyone involved, whether they be runners (elite and non-elite), spectators, and yes, tiny tots who happen to be the offspring of elite runners. Frankly, what amazes me is the fact that this Al Ketbi wasn’t trampled to death. During the New York City Half Marathon, I was jostled and had my heels stepped on during the first quarter mile or so of the race. My average pace was 6:31 per mile. Can you imagine what would have happened to me if I was running at 9:35 pace? (which was Al Ketbi’s pace for the 10K)
Secondly, in my experience with NYRR races, volunteers have been very vigilant about checking my bib to make sure I was in the correct corral. The possibility of Al Ketbi accidentally ending up with the front runners is at best extremely unlikely.
Finally, I understand the importance of making owns sponsors happy. A prerace photo of Al Ketbi with the elites should have sufficed though. It would have been safer for Al Ketbi, and everyone else around him.
May 18, 2011 at 10:10 am
nyflygirl
May not be on the topic, may sorta be, but this just seemed like a good post to vent about something I saw at a recent race. At the Scotland 10K, I saw a woman I know with a blue bib number-someone who I know for a fact is quite a bit slower than me (and does have a NYRR race history of at least a few yrs), and I was (fairly) in the yellow corral. Even better-race pictures showed her and her sig. other right at the front of the blue corral, right on the line-in a club points race, no less…little disrespectful? SMH…
May 18, 2011 at 10:18 am
JoeGarland
L,
Putting aside how she got a blue bib, it does point to the one sexist thing that NYRR does (accepting the appropriateness of the women-only Mini and More races). At many races now, instead of having people line up based upon their past results, NYRR will have women in the Blue corral brought to the left-side so that, presumably, there are women shown in the starting-line photo. While plenty of women can beat me and get out faster than I can, none of them belong on the front line, as I don’t belong there. But NYRR-personnel will scream at men who cross the vertical line that is supposed to separate men and women in the blue (and only in the blue).
It’s akin to the sponsor’s-exemptions that we saw at HK, but I didn’t want to add that to the fire.
May 19, 2011 at 12:20 pm
Amy
If she got a blue bib, she deserves to be there, no? If NYRR suspected her of cheating, she wouldn’t be in the race.
May 19, 2011 at 12:55 pm
JoeGarland
Who knows how she got the blue bib, but she apparently did. Which is fine. But within the blue corral one doesn’t go to the front unless one is going out really really fast. Especially in a club race.
It can be a parlor game to look at the start-line photos and identify by looks who probably doesn’t belong there and then check the race-results to find out.
Finding one’s position within the blue corral can be tricky and I try my best. But I know enough not to be anywhere near the front. NYRR’s 1-99 system — in which the fastest runners get a mini-corral ahead of the rest, is a great way to sort some of these things out.
May 18, 2011 at 2:02 pm
baker
I agree totally.
[DELETED]
May 18, 2011 at 3:46 pm
nyflygirl
wonder if the guy actually wore the d-tag as well?
i remember at the wall street run a few years ago, someone (a guy) was wearing his GF’s chip, therefore giving her a much faster race time and knocking out a legitimate AG award recipient. not right…
i don’t think you’re overreacting. we all try and do the right thing, it’s frustrating to see those taking the easy way out.
May 19, 2011 at 1:02 pm
JoeGarland
I deleted part of Chris Baker’s post because I identified the athlete and club involved and I think it was not done maliciously even if it was not kosher. The only problem was that, yes, the D-tag was worn but I understand that the runner who will get an unearned blue number in the future will try to start where he belongs. In response to this report, Chris wrote, “Nice! Okay, we will let it slide.”
I left Flygirl’s comment up because she refers to an incident that had actual consequences.
I don’t have a major issue with wearing someone else’s number in a normal race. (I do, for different, complicated reasons for the Marathon.) The entry’s been paid for. But just remove the D-tag before crossing the finish.
May 19, 2011 at 1:04 pm
Amy
Joe, isn’t it always a little dangerous to wear someone else’s number? If something happened to you during the race, and you were unable to communicate for yourself, NYRR probably has no idea who you are, or who to contact in case of an emergency (assuming you don’t write an emergency number on your fake bib).
May 19, 2011 at 3:58 am
Ewen
A ‘take-down notice’! Isn’t that being a bit petty? I mean, we can still see the photos linked to this wonderfully written blog post. Well, you’ve written better posts Joe .)
They’ve recently (only about 4 or 5 years ago) introduced corrals at the City to Surf (which gets about 70,000 entries) and the system works fairly well. There are ‘elite runners’ numbering 100 or so. Then ‘preferred’ start is for the next 600 or so (including a handful of freebie sponsor non-qualified spots), then the A1 start (those who can run about 8:30 miles) etc. It works fairly well, but there are always interlopers, and falls. The first 2k is very chaotic.
I’d be voting with my feet – doing a low-key race at Van Cortland Park for example, or some other club or community race.
May 19, 2011 at 1:08 pm
JoeGarland
Amy,
I can’t reply directly, but you raise a point I had not thought of. It’s one reason to wear a RoadID during a race.
You’re right. So if you’re going to do it, fill out the emergency info on the back. It would be really bad to have them think “John Doe” is really “John Smith.”
May 19, 2011 at 2:43 pm
threlkeld
Also check out Lornah Kiplagat deliberately dumping water on the shoes of her competitors at 1:55. I thought that was not cool.
May 19, 2011 at 8:24 pm
cg9m
never sure why i bother. but, here’s a story (on the feminist front). the day i defended, eons ago now it seems, i was carrying an armload of boxes from my lab to my car. as i got out of the elevator, i saw the prof who’d recently (at that time) won the nobel for discovering the ozone hole. he had a reputation for being an extremely decent, down-to-earth person. he was all the way down the hall, and happened to turn as he opened the main door. he saw me coming, stopped, came over, and insisted on carrying some of my boxes, holding the door, and walking all the way- about a quarter mile- to the parking lot. he’d have done that for anyone. a year later, i was walking into a seminar behind one of the most famous ‘names’ in organic synthesis- another older prof, very cocky, successful, and wealthy. he opened the door to the conference room, happened to see me coming, but let it slam in my face. his reasoning? he did not officially ‘discriminate’ against women, and holding doors open for them was an example of sexism, in his opinion. i wondered at the time if his (blatant rudeness, and arrogance, in my opinion) extended to men as well.
perhaps the reason women are allowed to stand with men at the front of the lines in major races is that they are being respected for their talent, hard work, and achievements, and for being the best women in the field. the gap is narrowing, and hopefully someday soon, the best women will run similar times to the best men. as it is now, however, i doubt seriously, that any of them are really ‘in the way’ of the faster men, and many are worthy competitors.
but this kind of (petty, to me) debate about who does and doesn’t ‘deserve’ to stand at the front of a race, is yet another reason i’ll stick to the local or fun runs in future. i confess i’m a little blown away by it.
one thing i do believe is that at least some of your respondents are genuinely concerned about others’ safety in large races. my previous quip was that i think you’re mostly concerned about your own.
i don’t know what the answer is for nyrr races…seems they are large enough now for wave starts. and, in last year’s mini- a race i like to run b/c the overall spirit seems supportive and convivial (even tho i realize there are lots of uber-competitive women in it who run other nyrr races that i’ve deliberately avoided for that very reason)- many ‘slower’ women were folding their bib colors under so they could sneak into the faster corrals. i saw it everywhere (and evidenced by the pics) in the first mile. i’m inexperienced as to nyrr races, as i’ve run very few, so i stood where i was told. but, even with the corrals, it was still an extremely crowded (and slow) first mile. perhaps that’s why people attempt to hop corrals, and it’s accepted among city ‘racers’.
funny, tho, that larger local races have the opposite problem. many offer chip/tag-timing but then don’t have start mats- which i never understand- and i’ve often resented that b/c i’ve always given faster people the courtesy of me starting farther back. i lose a significant amount of time at the finish so they can have their few seconds. the message is that slower people don’t care about their times (or haven’t earned the right to?). start mats often solve that issue, but not for races in the thousands in venues that can’t handle the crowding (central park, or the fairfield half, for that matter). you’re still stuck run-walking until you have some room. or hopping curbs and doing crazy stunts (and wasting energy) getting around people. it’s not fun. and what’s the gain? in the end, my vote’s the scenic, 100-500 person race with the jogging strollers and toddlers, the community spirit, and the fund-raising. but that’s me.
May 19, 2011 at 8:54 pm
JoeGarland
C,
A few years ago I ran a NYRR club race and someone came up to me afterward and said I was the politest runner he’d ever seen. Shocking, I know. When I’m racing on the road and I hear someone coming up on the inside, you know what I do? I move out to let her through. I’ve no interest in impeding another’s race progress.
As to where one starts, there is one variable and one alone. How fast one is going to start. I don’t care if one has a Nobel. You might not think it matters, but that’s the criterion. Yet you’re rather unscientifically all over the place. You object to having personal difficulties because people started where they should not have based upon their speed yet you object to using the objective measure of one’s speed to determine where one is supposed to start.
As to the “it’s all about you”, plenty of women deserve to start well ahead of me. You’ll recall at SSRMC I never distinguished by gender. Give me some credit.
As to the door-slamming. That’s just rude. But I would not hold a door for a woman in circumstances when I would not hold it for a man. If I see someone coming, anyone, and it would be helpful to hold the door, I’ll do it. I will confess, though, that while I’ll always give my seat on a subway to a standing-woman, I won’t necessarily for a man (although I generally just stand).
You’ve experienced the every-woman-for-herself aspect of races. I think it ugly and discourteous.
I don’t disagree about the benefits of running smaller races, like the many we have in Westchester. Indeed, I made that point this past Sunday on the New York Running Show, and in a recent post. I think more people should look to the non-NYRR race because I don’t know what’s the fun of having to walk/jog/run for the first mile of a race and spend the rest of the time weaving through traffic.
So in the end, I think we pretty much agree on everything here. People should be polite and considerate of one another. People should not start a race where they’re not supposed to based upon how fast they are. People should consider running non-NYRR races because they offer a more pleasant experience.
May 19, 2011 at 8:32 pm
cg9m
oh yeah!? and i forgot to ask (genuinely curious)- how does one “tell” a slower runner? do we smell? is it a club race singlet or the expensive racing flats that designate talent? i’ve never been able to identify someone as slow based on looks. i remember one of the top women’s finishers of last year’s caumsett 50k as being medium height and curvy. she was keeping up with the faster guys. and, i’m about the same height-weight (2 inches shorter, 3 lbs heavier, looked it up) as desiree davila. *cough* i need to lose weight. at least to look fast.
May 19, 2011 at 8:56 pm
JoeGarland
I wondered whether anyone would pick up on that. For this there are criteria, but in the end it’s simply, as they say, I know it when I see it. The guy in that Healthy-Kidney? That’s what I’m talking about.
Of course many view me as far too chunky.
May 19, 2011 at 9:47 pm
cg9m
ok…i’m a little confused..and now i assume you’re using ‘unscientifically’ to discredit me once again. and it’s a problem i’ve had w/a lot of your posts…i’ll even use your ruse as an illustration now…when someone writes for a rag like the ny post, they often avoid libel by invoking a suggestion-by-association (eg, your description of something i wrote before as ‘crazy’ b/c the reader will then perceive me as ‘crazy’). brilliant. um. yeah.
anyway. i assume what you’re getting at is the contrast btwn what i was saying at the beginning about people in larger races being assigned discrete and appropriate ‘levels’ according to their ability, and the local race starts where one could theoretically start willy-nilly. and you believe that i think it’s ok for all energy levels to start on the same line in both circumstances? i guess i’m still confused.
hm. maybe i’ll take a different tack. i could care less about nyrr. or about city races. i’ll likely never do another. they’re too much a pima, both to get to, to obtain the numbers for (i hated having to trek up there to get the bib when i lived there!), and now to park, etc. for what? a crowded workout in cp. whee.
but what are the options for city-dwellers? not many. and it’s become it’s own monster with people stressing about who should be where, etc. local races are more about point-a-to-point-b, and even if a walker were on the starting line, it often wouldn’t matter much (outlier). (this is becoming a mathematical problem…nyrr races, like traffic jams, are fluid dynamics…large numbers, small spaces..)
i guess lately i’ve run several events with all sorts of folks, strollers, etc, and not found any to be an issue. i’m not sure i’ll go so far as to retract what i said previously about safety for toddlers in the mini, tho. if a child darted out onto the race course at any time, i think it would be hazardous b/c the runners wouldn’t expect it. in a local race, however, they would/should, so it’s less of an issue. but we all sign waivers to expect the unexpected in races, too. i think we do have a responsibility to be vigilant. in the case of the mini race photo, however, it looked very staged, as i said before, and after running so many recent events (some in the thousands) with small kids for charity benefits, i just can’t see what they did as a problem. i realize you feel differently, but i think that’s idealistic (well, in the ‘races are for racers’ sense). and that’s a reason we’re on opposite sides of the running tent.
May 22, 2011 at 3:07 pm
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[...] (For the record, save for a take-down notice on its pictures, it never got back about my “Safety Last” column, although it did see it (as evidenced by the aforementioned take-down notice).) It is [...]
October 30, 2011 at 12:50 pm
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[...] of races”. I touched on this issue after this year’s Healthy Kidney 10K, in “Safety Last“. Now NYRR is selling spots on the starting line. Details in that LetsRun [...]